Richard Nelson Frye is the Aga Khan Professor Emeritus at Harvard University. Born into a Swedish immigrant family in Alabama in 1920, he has been a scholar of Iran and Central Asia for nearly 60 years. Dr. Frye wrote his autobiography called, “Greater Iran: A 20th-century Odyssey” which was published in 2005. He remains a lover of Iran, or as Dehkhuda called him, an Irandust. Rooz recently interviewed Dr. Frye.
Rooz: When did you first become interested in Iran and why? What year was that? What was your impression then?
Frye: I read a book about Teymur Lang (Tamerlane) when I was in high school and became interested in Central Asia. In 1938 I attended the only seminar on Islamic studies in the U.S. at Princeton. It came as a revelation to me that greater Iran was the source of both language and culture and that the Turkish heritage was part of greater Iran, or as the author Mahmud al-Kashgahri wrote in his Diwan Loghat al-Turk: “Börk başsiz Türk tatsiz bolmaz,” which means “a hat without a head is like a Turk without a Tajik.” Turkey and Iran are complementary and belong together. In 1941 I returned to Princeton and studied Persian with Mehmet Simsar from Tabriz.
R: On the same trip, you were with Donald Wilber on your way to Afghanistan. What did you think of him? What was he doing there?
F: Donald Wilber in my opinion was an arrogant, self-centered individual. Fortunately I had little to do with him. He went to Iran to coordinate information, first for the OSS and later for the CIA; he was always in the spying game.
R: You know that Donald Wilber was one of the architects of the coup and he boasted much about it. What kind of a scholar was he?
F: I was a strong supporter of Dr. Mossadeq and much opposed to American policy and people like Wilber. I got my laqab Irandust from Dehkhuda, a friend of Mossadeq, and after the fall of Mossadeq for a number of years I refused to return to Iran. Wilber was an architect [by profession] and was said to have a wonderful collection of Persian rugs. He had trouble speaking since he stuttered but he wrote well, though I must say he was a mediocre scholar.
R: What do you think of Ann Lambton, who recently died? She was also a scholar of Iran and advised the British government. She told her government not to compromise with Mossadeq under any circumstances.
F: I didn’t know her well. But I met her once when she was in Tehran with Zaehner [another British agent involved in the coup] and then one more time at SOAS [University of London’s School of Oriental and African Studies] in London. She was certainly a good scholar and she wrote a few books on land reform. But she was not a person you could get acquainted with. She was austere, very cold. She did not make many friends and her students were afraid of her. She was very British. She was extremely pro-British and anti-everything else! I did not know much about her role and she never spoke to anyone about it.
R: You have studied Iran almost all your life, what is your impression of the country and the people?
F: I use the word Persia and Iran for greater Iran since many people do not recognize that Persia was like China a great civilization which stretched from Hungary to China. Its culture and civilization was great in the past and will be so in the future, hospitality and a pragmatic outlook on life characterize Persia, but it is a land of great variety and extremes with reason always triumphing over emotions.
R: Thirty years have passed since the 1979 revolution. How have things changed in your opinion? Do you think Iran has changed for the better under the Islamic regime?
F: Iran is always changing no matter who runs it, but at least the ayatollahs have left their money in Iran or in Dubai instead of sending it to western accounts as happened with the many sycophants around the Shah. ‘Like China, Iran now has too many people and that causes great problems and the people are always more important than any government which runs affairs. Iran should very soon join the rest of the world in combating an overheated earth and such matters.
R: Do you believe the 1979 revolution was unavoidable and why? What are some of the events and processes that led to the revolution?
F: The excesses of too many people around the Shah with SAVAK and excessive expenditures and such matters brought about the revolution, and it probably was inevitable that Iran would become a Republic instead of an absolute monarchy. People forget that from the end of World War II until 1953 Iran had a democracy and I was happy to have witnessed that period.
R: You are married to an Assyrian/Iranian who is also a renowned scholar. How has that experience been for you?
F: My wife, Eden, who is from Orumie, has helped me a great deal, especially bringing attention to Iran’s minorities. The persecution of Baha’is should be stopped. One problem is that Iran is still concerned with religious minorities and this should cease. Religion dominates all as it did in the past.
R: Iran is a country of many ethnic and religious minorities. Do you think it has treated them well, especially in recent times? If not, why not?
F: In my opinion religious minorities should be forgotten while ethnic minorities should not. What is important is not religious fanaticism but if there is any fanaticism it is about Iran. All Christians, Muslims, Jew and Zoroastrians rally behind the Persian language and culture when threatened such as changing the Persian Gulf to the Arabian Gulf. In the future hopefully an Armenian could represent a Muslim group in the Majlis or a Muslim could represent Orumieh for example. At least Iran has escaped the religious strife of Pakistan, Iraq and others. Baluch, Kurdish and other minorities should be allowed to practice their own beliefs but they should acknowledge the primacy of the Persian language and culture. Religion should be downplayed in questions of minorities.
R: Who were some of your students who became famous in the field?
Frye: I have had many students and not only in Harvard but also in Shiraz and in Hamburg, at Harvard, John Limbert, Jamsheed Choksy and Rahim Shayaegan, at Hamburg, Roschan Zamir, etc.
R: You have mentioned that you would like to be buried in Isfahan. Why in Iran? Why Isfahan?
F: The answer is clear, I have always loved Iran. I had hoped to be buried in Shiraz or Dushanbe but Persian friends persuaded me to be buried in the mausoleum of Arthur Pope on the banks of the Zayande Rud. So that’s what was decided.
R: What are some of the underlying features that make Iran a special place in all of the Middle East?
F: Iran has been neglected by both foreigners and also by Persians. For example, Iran created the first secular law code in history. Hammurabi’s law code was religious. The Achaemenids made dad or justice the overall law of the empire. It is beautifully expressed in the book of Ezra in the Bible. Throughout history Iran has always maintained a division of state and religion, expressed in the Qabus Nameh, the Siyaset Nameh and many others. This was copied by the Romans. Iran changed only under the caliphate when church and state were combined in one person. But this is vital for Iran, the second point is that Iranians created the golden age of Islam when the key of Islam equaling Arab was broken and Iran made Islam an international culture and based on languages other than Arabic.
Rooz: In recent years, many books have been written on modern Iran. Which one would you single as your favorites?
Frye: I cannot say which books on modern Iran are my favorites but I think Ervand Abrahamian’s book, Iran between Two Revolutions is very good but there are many others as well.
Rooz: In your opinion, is Iran headed toward becoming a powerful nation and should the West be frightened of such prospect?
Frye: Iran is moving towards inclusion in the global world and will again become powerful in culture and in contributing to world culture and civilization, and of course the West should not worry; we are all in the same boat and we must do whatever is needed to save our whole world, not just Iran or the West.
Rooz: What is your message to those who may want to study Iranian history, culture and politics? What should their approach be?
Frye: Students should of course learn about both past and present, about culture and poetry, rugs and everything which makes Iran important. Such is the case for Jews in Israel and Los Angeles, Armenians and others who value the culture of Iran as a great contributor of world culture. They should learn the language and become familiar with ethnic minorities and Iran’s great culture, which is in many ways like China’s.
Rooz: What do you hope to see happen in this complex land?
Frye: I hope that dad-gostari ( spread of justice ) would become reconciled with din-gostari (spread of religion) and that there be no conflict in the varied and manifold world of Iran and that tolerance and reason always replace emotion in Iranians dealings with the world.
Rooz: What about Noruz? What are your thoughts as we are approaching the Persian New Year?
Frye: Anyone who doubts that the coming of the vernal equinox, the 21st of March, the coming of spring is the correct beginning of a new year should have their heads examined, because, January 1st is a pure irrational choice by a Roman Emperor. Noruz is the correct new year for greater Iran and beyond. My best wishes for Noruz to all my Iranian friends here and Iranians in Iran as well as the peoples of Afghanistan and Tajikistan.
